Mill Creek Haunted Hollow: Construction BLOG

Entry 32: May 12, 2012
Beautiful weather, so we are starting to take off the roof over the garage. We have officially gone too far to quit!

Took Friday afternoon to take off the siding from the front of the garage.

Saturday morning, my oldest daughter and I started taking the shingles (3 layers) off the roof. I took a half ton to the dump, then came back to create another pile in the driveway.

End of the day (or afternoon) and we were able to cut most of the roof back to the main support joist. This support joist will stay in place for a while while I build around it, then I will rebuild the joist so it has angular supports tied into the new walls.

Posted by Frughoul: Awesome! But what if it rains? Don't you have exposed electrical!?!
The weather report is clear for the next couple of days, so I'm okay. I did lay a tarp down across the electrical and subfloor -- just in case. I'm hoping to do more work tomorrow afternoon, removing the rest of the roof section and then securing the first portion of the flooring. This will cover the electrical for good.

Entry 33: May 13, 2012
Had a great Mother's day brunch with the wife, grandparents, and daughters; then spent the afternoon working it all off. I never get as much done as I want to, but I feel pretty good about today. Found out in the afternoon that I was one 2x10x10 shy of being able to complete things, so I did what I could and tried to clean up a bit. Figure I'll take another load to the dump tomorrow and pick up some lumber on my way back.

Here's the front of the garage in the afternoon. Still have some roof to remove and 2x10 joists to set in place.

Here's what the front of the garage looks like this evening. The three 2x10s that are jumping out are where the front of the garage tower will go. I need one more to complete the supports.

This is from the ladder, looking across the top. I have three of the five sheets of subfloor laying loose right now, but as soon as I corner up the joists, I hope to secure the subfloor so I can begin framing the new second floor.

I probably lost 5 pounds just sweating today -- which is good, considering all the yummy things I had at brunch. They had little bites of cake dunked in white chocolate! How can you refuse something like that? It's just not possible.

Posted by Mordessa: I have to admit, I love seeing updates to this thread! I love that you are posting pictures of the whole process, so fun to live vicariously through you as you make adjustments to your house that I would SO love to be able to do to my own! I want a tower!!!

Thanks for taking pictures though! Keep them coming, please! This looks like you are off to a great start. Have you had nice weather? What do you do if it rains with all that open area right now?

Posted by Arronaf: Your talents are amazing. I love watching the progress. Thank you for taking the time to post updates and letting us come along on your journey.
First, thank you! I'm excited to do this build and I'm thrilled that I get to share it with fellow enthusiasts.

I wanted to jump on the good weather that has come out way. Forecasts say we're in for at least a week of sun and 70ish weather. If it does rain (and ( know it will) I have a giant 40' x 60' tarp that I can throw over the entire garage.

Entry 34: May 15, 2012
Doing the best I can juggling work, kids, and demolition, but it is coming along. The one thing I can say for certain is that I hate demo.

I love building. Building is a chance to be creative, to make something, to cut pieces of things together and make them fit. Demolition is hot, gritty, heavy, and very tiring (ang my back hurts).

Anyway, I was able to take off more of the old roof (making another big pile in the driveway) and I was able to nail in all the joists 16" on center and frame in the front joists to the ledger. I also threw up a few more sheets of subfloor so I have more area to walk on.

Sorry for the picture quality, but I couldn't find the camera, so these are off my wife's phone.

Yet another pile of debris to be hauled off to the dump. I can burn the wood (if I have to), but I have to dump the shingles.

Most of the old roof is gone how. I need to cut about 8 feet off the back slope, but it's coming up pretty good.

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Awww, demo is the best part of remodeling! Destruction before the construction! Although, don't get me wrong. Yeah, it's nasty, tiring, and freaking hot when on a roof (or attic for that matter). It's just awesome for getting out any frustrations one might have from work!
I'm separating the wood from the tar paper and shingles, but I already have too much. I might be able to store it somewhere else after the remodel, like the side of the house.

One more day of demo and I should be able to just start building. I'm really looking forward to NOT having to rip apart shingles for a while.

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Might I suggest salvaging the wood for some 'ween projects? And I just have to ask, who's camping out in the front yard?
HA! The tent is actually being used as a storage unit for a bunch of stuff that we were keeping in the garage attic. Hopefully, when the attic addition is complete, we'll be able to put all of that stuff neatly upstairs, leaving a lot of room in the garage for my workshop.

I'm looking forward to having an "attic" space that I can access simply by walking up the stairs instead of trying to climb up a narrow attic pull-down ladder. Also, it will be much larger, so I can build shelves and store everything in an organized manner.

Imagine, a complete 20' x 20' space dedicated (mostly) to Halloween storage!

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Hahaaa! Nice improvised storage there, that's a great idea!
I'm separating the wood from the tar paper and shingles, but I already have too much. I might be able to store it somewhere else after the remodel, like the side of the house.
Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Ya know I love ya like a brother lucky *@$7@Rd!!! I can only dream of more storage space and a "REAL" set of stairs to get into my attic. Color me jealous as hell! All kidding aside, that's going to be awesome to have that much storage space at your disposal!

Yeah, I understand all to well how you feel about the shingles. :/ I've ripped more than a few roofs off, and rebuilt them. I was always happy that sort of thing was a once in a while endeavor, and not an everyday occurrence, let me tell you! I hope you at least had a roofers shovel at your disposal?

After an hour on the roof Saturday morning with my hammer and flat crowbar, I went right out and bought a shingle shovel from Lowes. Very happy purchase!
Hilda: I was going to ask the same thing... but thought there was a slim chance that the tent was his new abode if Endora had tossed him out on his ear for ripping apart her house ~ and told him not to come back inside until he was done!!
Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Lol! Yep, flat bar & a hammer will leave you feeling like ripping off shingles may very well be the last thing you ever do! I can imagine how you felt, the shovel makes em' fly by way of comparison.
Posted by Endora421: Haha! Nope, I haven't done anything of the sort, and as TK can testify, I actually encouraged him to get started ripping the garage roof off when the sun came out. What I think is funny is that when I pull into the driveway, I can see the skeletons hanging in the attic...and so can the whole neighborhood!

Entry 35: May 16, 2012
I've only got a few more sections of the old roof to rip up, but my back and the direct afternoon sun told me I needed to quit for the day. Also, my $5 demo blade for the skillsaw wore out, so I couldn't cut any more sections of roof.

So, I took a nice shower, pulled some slivers from my palms, and went to Lowes to get more demo saw blades.

Ah-hah!! After two days of searching all over the house for the digital camera, my wonderful wife just found it in the littles' room! I guess our four year old fancies herself a photographer. Can't wait to see what sort of pictures she's taken!

Anyway, here are some pics from today's work.

The first thing I did this morning was load 1,000 pounds worth of shingles into the back of the van and take it to the dump.

Here's the soon to be balcony of the second floor, plus some of the interior. Happily, most of the roof I need to remove is gone.

Just showing off more of the interior (which is exposed right now). I need to finish cutting back the roof so that it lines up with the sill plate of the wall below. Then I'll be running a new wall that joins with the far back roof and has some windows that will let in natural light.

Still have to cut that whole section of roof off so that the new second floor can join up around the chimney.

Posted by Frughoul: Coming along nicely man - do you have a sawzall or is that skillsaw in the picture the only thing you have for demo?
I have a rip saw, but I'm extremely disapointed with it. It's a cheap Craftsman and it can't hold a blade anymore. I think something is wrong with the clamp screw or the anchor pin may just be worn down too much. Whatever the problem, blades just pop right out if they encounter any resistance.

I do have an electric chainsaw I use from time to time, but for right now, I find getting rid of the shingles with the shingle shovel and then cutting through the sheathing with the skill saw is working pretty well.

Entry 36: May 17, 2012
Good day! It's not even 10:30am and I've gotten the rest of the roof off. Next step is to run the wiring to make sure everything goes where it should, then I can start securing the subfloor and frame the addition.

Looking up at the garage from the end of the driveway. A very satisfying feeling.

Another day, another pile of lumber and shingles in the driveway.

The stairs are fantastic, but now that I'm done cutting the roof, I need to sweep and clean to get rid of the shingle crud.

Cut the last of the old joists. Still have a bit of roof around the chimney, but I want to see how things fit together before I cut any more.

Still have to work around some of the props, but soon enough we'll have quality storage for all this stuff.

Posted by Stick: Looks like it coming alone slowly but true before to know it you will be finishes and enjoying the beauty of you "New Home".
Hallowdean: TK, your design and building so far looks amazing. I would be envious to even have a neighbor with a home like this! I will really enjoy watching your progress.

Entry 37: May 18, 2012
Oh, what a day I had. Started out great. Built the bump out for the garage tower and then started to measure and frame the front wall. I was very excited, hoping I would get a lot done, when my wife came out and told me, "the internet is down!"

Well, as you all know, life cannot continue on a Friday afternoon when there's no internet, so I stopped working and began to investigate. Found out quickly that the reason the internet wasn't working was because the outlet had stopped working. Ok, no problem. I'll just check the breakers. Sure enough, the breaker had tripped. Odd, I thought, but I'll just switch it back.

Of course, it wouldn't switch back. It immediately tripped back to off. Weird? Okay, let me try again. Nope, same result. So, the next thing I did was trace the line. Maybe I cut or pinched something by walking over the wires. Looked again and again, still no signs of damage.

This caused me to think, "maybe it's the breaker? I mean, it's probably as old as the house, so maybe it just needs to be replaced."

Went to Lowes, bought a new breaker, came home and installed it...damn thing tripped just like the other one.

So, I start checking the bedroom outlets to see if anything shows signs of a short...nothing.

Now, I know we have an outlet right behind our bed, so I think, "I'd better check that one, too!"

I try pushing the bed out a bit so my big butt will fit and, yup, split the side support of the bed! Argh!!!

So now I've got no internet, a rat's nest of a junction box that isn't working, and I just broke our bedframe of 15 years!

Finally, I do more testing and determine what I really need to do is just replace the length of 14/3 wire to the upstairs junction box. I go to Lowes, again, buy a 100ft roll of 14/3, and install what I need.

So now, at the end of the day, I have a few bits of framing up, a new length of 14/3 running to the upstairs junction box, working internet, and a busted bed.

The wife and I will be putting the bed and boxspring on the floor for the next few days while we search for a new bedframe that will match our other bedroom furniture.

Now, I'm gonna go have some dinner, and maybe a BIG margarita.

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Oh you just have to love those kind of days, eh TK? See, now after that type of day, that's where demo is a stress reliever! Here, this should help...

Mordessa: LOL Raven!

TK, That sounds like it was a hellish day! But seriously, it's the kinda thing you have to look back on and just laugh, even if it wasn't funny at the time, it's one of those things that's just too funny in retrospect to not have a sense of humor about it, right?

I am still loving watching all your progress btw! Thank you so much for letting us enjoy this process with you, so we can all live out our own dream renovations vicariously.

I was wondering... before you finish things up permanent-like on the floor of the attic, have you considered making an elevator, maybe something that works on pullies that you could set up to be a part of the ceiling of the garage/floor of the attic, that raises and lowers using pullies so you can more easily transport the stuff you want to store up there? It would probably be a lot easier to do something like that than to drag heavy Halloween props up and down the stairs, no matter how wonderful those stairs are! (And to me, they look really wonderful!)

Just a suggestion and I hope it's not too late if it's one that appeals to you!

Keep up the excellent work, I LOVE this blog!

Entry 38: May 20, 2012
It's been a great run of sunny weather, but the clouds came back today and they're predicting rain this week. I cleaned up last night and put our giant blue tarp up over everything. With any luck, we'll be okay. The tarp is large enough, it covers everything, I just need to look for any large pools that may form and take care of them quickly.

Good thing is, I can still work with the tarp on. Today I have Haunter (Shawn) coming over to pick up a bunch of scrap wood, then it's another run of shingles to the dump (this will be the last one for a while!).

After that, I hope to spend the afternoon cutting my vertical mansard joists from the 2x10s. I'm a bit nervous because I think the angle is too much for my skill saw, so I may need to use my band saw, but it has a pretty small work platform. I don't want to use my jigsaw because it's a crappy little thing and the stupid blades always bend so I don't get a true cut.

I'll keep y'all posted.

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: That's a shame. Oh well, at least you had a few days of nice weather.
Blackfog: Love seeing the progression from floorplan to actual building! It is going to be awesome when complete. Hang in there cause there are always gonna be snags you can't help! Ahhhh big margarita sounds good lol!

Entry 38, Continued: May 20, 2012
First, I hate rain today. Tarp is proving to be a great water collector.

Second, I need all the brainpower of the forum to help think of the best tool for the job. I want to cut these 2x10s with the angle shown so they can be the vertical truss pieces for the mansard roof. Problem is, my little tabletop 9" bandsaw doesn't like them. I would probably have a better time if I bought a meaner, thicker blade, so I might just go do that, but I'm not very good at tracking the line with the bandsaw on a curve like this.

So, does anyone out there know if a better way? Or a better tool?

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Pretty well the best option is the bandsaw, I hate to say. A reciprocating type bladed tool with a blade long enough to cut through that is going to flex a slight bit, leaving a mildly inaccurate backside of the cut. Not enough that you'd notice looking from even a couple feet away. It can be done with a jigsaw, but you'll need a semi-pro, or professional like my FireStorm B&D, DeWalt, Milwaukee, or Porter Cable. Give me a little bit (hopefully my neighbor will be right back to help me lift that monstrosity), and I'll send you a pic of some 2x4 stock that I used my jigsaw to cut a semi-circle out of for a tube type subwoofer bracket, for an example of what I mean.

Also, Bosch T-shank & Milwaukee jigsaw blades are the most commonly available in big box stores, in a length long enough to cut to that depth w/o binding from the shortest part of the stroke not penetrating the bottom of the cut. Hope that helps you out a bit

I think a wider blade with good teeth for ripping will help a lot. Right now, I've got a narrow blade with small teeth that I was using to cut corbels.

Just need to head off to Lowes and see what they have.

Oh, any my current little craftsman jigsaw is so sad and pitiful, I don't dare use it at all.

Entry 38, Continued: May 20, 2012
Okay, spent some time moving 2x4s to prevent the "big" puddles from forming in the tarp. Don't laugh, I think it's better than it was.

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Looks good to me TK. Tarps are definitely better than visqueen for carrying a load of water where there's no solid backing too. I've seen way to many make that mistake, and the resulting disaster that using it caused. Sorry it took so long to get back, I'm running out of daylight over here, and trying to get as much done as possible. PM'ing you the pics in a bit so I don't clutter up your thread.
Haunter: Very impressive build! And, of course, just as you are making great progress, the rains start. Gotta love living here!

Thank you for the wood and letting me check it out first hand. I even loved the detailed mock-up! I will be very interested to see the build progress over the summer. It looks like it may dry out (a bit) over the weekend, so good luck!

Thanks Haunter! It's actually a good thing the rain has returned because I've been slacking off at work. I need the rain to keep me inside so I can actually work on the projects they pay me for. I'll be doing small stuff in the garage this week, like cutting support rafters and continuing to work on the window design and such. When the weather breaks, I hope to have most of the pieces ready to go so that I can put up a more proper roof.
In a way, I think all this rain is helpful because it shows where I have problems and allows me to immediately test possible solutions.

I know that the front 4 ft of the garage roof is going to be exposed balcony, I'm putting in some shims to angle the subfloor enough that rain will run off the edge, rather than back into the garage.

Rainy day fun!

Entry 39: May 22, 2012
The rain was bad yesterday, in fact, we broke a record for 24 hour rainfall for May 21st! After moving and fixing tarps all day and trying to keep the garage clean between spills, the rain went away and the wind came in. Now I have a giant sail over the garage and gusts keep popping various clamps, so the tarps fly up and whip about.

I really need to finish my work and get back to building the real roof. Good news is the forecast looks good and this weekend should be warm and dry.

Entry 40: May 23, 2012
(4:19am) Was awakened frm slumber at 4am to the sound of the garage flooding! Guess the rain decided it would go into overdrive during the night and a few areas of the tarp just got too heavy, so they gave way. Gallons of water spilled over the washer and dryer, and gallons more poured over my tablesaw. The only good news is that the garage slab is angled so all the water runs out the garage door, but it's still a mess.

I must say this again for the record, "I really hate the rain right now."

(4:20am) Just checked the weather forecast . . . "light rain" my a$$.

Posted by Terra: Oh no!!!! I hope it all dries out and is usable again.
Haullorenescene: tk, that is really tough. sorry to hear that.
Stick: You know the saying build it and they will come (rain that is). Sorry that things got wet just let them dry before you use the electrical equipment or you will end up with the props.

Entry 40, Continued: May 23, 2012
Every couple of hours I go up and use the broom to "sweep" the collecting puddles of water off the tarp. Last night it just got away from me because I actually tried to sleep! Stupid of me, I know.

Things are getting better and there's nothing in the garage right now that hasn't gotten wet before. My tablesaw is just fine, thank goodness. Turns out the majority of the water was falling just to the side of the saw, so there's a big puddle on the floor, but just a little water on the tablesaw.

I can't wait for this weekend so that I can frame the roof and get everything properly waterproofed.

Posted by Raven's Hollow Cemetery: Omg, so sorry to hear that TK! Don't worry, with electronics, being wet is fine as long as they weren't operating at the time. When they dry out (and that may take a bit), they will work perfectly.

Entry 23: April 7, 2012
Garage has been gutted and all the stuff that was stored in the attic has been moved to our big camping tent in the driveway. Today is one of the first dry days we've had sun, so I painted a section of the house to see how the color looks. I wanted grey, but the color looks like a grey/purple in the sun.

Gonna have to go back and pick a different color. Something that is more grey and less blue/purple.

The tent is a lot cheaper than paying for one of those storage pods, and more convenient than a storage place we'd have to drive to all the time.

I honestly don't know what you'd call it; amethyst, lavender, bright ube, chinese violet, dark pastel purple, deep lilac?

Posted by Terra: Wow, it does look purple - lavender even.
Posted by Hallorenescene: Periwinkle blue, but I like the green.
Ha! I like the green, too. When we first moved in, we painted the house green. I love the names you get for paint. The green color is Behr's "Happy Camper" green. The new color I'm looking at getting tomorrow for a test is called "Crucible" grey.

Entry 24: April 9, 2012
Picked up two other shades of grey from Lowes and added them to the house. I let them dry so the purplely hue would go away, and here are the official color choices for the exterior. I'm partial to the middle grey, which is called "Crucible", but my wife thinks the darker grey, "Hematite", is the better choice.

Anyone else have an opinion? Remember, we're going with white trim and some deep red highlights in the trimwork and front door.

Here's a tiny example of each color on the house.

Posted by Hallorenescene: well, from the forum picture, the one to the left looks to have a purple hue to it also. if you are sure you want grey, you had be best to go with the middle. the one to the right is way to light. i think in the dark the middle one will display best.

edit...after you show the display houses, i actually like the darker one. you guys decide though and let us know

Posted by Mordessa: I like both the middle and the dark, but I think the dark one is more dramatic, and fitting for the red. The grey one doesn't do the red justice and the white trim might make it look just washed out, not really spooky washed out, just washed out. The dark color with the red really feels like it's got some oomph! to it. Makes the place look more like WOW! for the non-Halloween months as well as being able to be somewhat dark and foreboding when it's most important.

I think a rich color like that red needs to go with an equally rich color like the hematite.

Posted by Endora421: I still like the darkest one best! It looks less purple IRL, and I think the white and red trim will really stand out. (Go figure, the Halloween wife wants the spookiest color!)
Posted by Stick: I thing the dark grey with the with trim and red is the winner. It will make each color stand out more than using the lighter color grey. Tk it is best to keep the little woman happy in the long run.
Posted by Terra: Throw me into the group that likes the darker gray too. Mordessa's right about the rich red goes with the deep gray (it's a tone thing). Those color combinations makes it a very scary house indeed.

But, the lighter gray is handsome in it's own way. Though it doesn't have that ominous look of the dark gray it has a cheeriness that could help carry you over the non Halloween months. At night it would still look scary.

So, if the goal is scary all year - that dark gray is a winner.

UPDATE4/11/12: I know I keep posting about the paint colors and all you really want to see is the actual construction process, but I thought I would post one more picture of the dark grey (Hematite) with the accent white and accent red. This picture was taken today, which is a nice, normal, cloudy Northwest day. In my opinion, this is how the paint colors will look most of the time, as this is the normal northwest outdoor light conditions.

Entry 25: April 13, 2012

Cutting the old support beams for the garage ceiling (replacing 2x4 with 2x10) and I had to remove the old attic access folding ladder. Unfortunately, the damn thing snapped down on my arm like a frickin' mousetrap as it fell from the ceiling. Nothing broken, but I've got to keep my swollen forearm on ice for a few hours.

Entry 26: April 14, 2012
Well, I'm through my 120-day permit process with the county, but on Tuesday, I have to present my plans to the Home Owner's Association. I'm actually on the HOA board, and I'm the President of the Architecture Committee, but I'm still nervous. I know there are no building guidelines specific to our community, and the HOA has absolutely no building restrictions, but, you know, it's a nervous point all the same.

Okay, still working in the garage, but I have cut out all the old spans in the way of the new support beam. Now all I have to do is get the new 20ft 4x10 span up there.

I'm gonna wait for some help to arrive.

UPDATE: Okay, I posted the PDF to my website and put a link here so people can see the official plans submitted to the Home Owner's Association.

HOA Plans Submission PDF

Entry 27: April 15, 2012
With my daughter's help, I was able to put the new double-joist in place! It took about two hours to put everything in and glue and secure the two beams together, but it's done!!

As soon as I can find the camera, I'll take a pic or two.

UPDATE: Found the camera, took some shots.

Entry 28: April 21, 2012
Home Owner's Association approved my remodel. I was prepared with a folder full of documents and I didn't have to go through any of them. I just told them I'm doing some remodelling this summer and they laughed and said, "ok".

I love it when something is simple.

Also, I just finished putting in the new stairs!!

Here is the garage this morning. I had to remove an old work bench and a wall of peg board just to get it to this point.

And here is the same space at 4:30pm this afternoon. Ta-da! A new set of stairs to what will be the second story garage storage.

My new favorite toy. Thank you eBay!!

Posted by IrishGuy: Nice to see the skellys have already moved in!

Entry 29: April 28, 2012
Slight side project today. Since I had to take out my old workbench to make room for the new stairs to the garage attic space, I am taking today to build a new workbench that will have 3" locking wheels, so I can move it about the garage as needed. I think it will be a major improvement, and it will give me the surface needed to continue building corbels and railings.

Took the top from my old work bench and build a very solid frame from old joists I've collected from the demo, put it all together, and now I have a new work table! I'll be putting 3" caster wheels with locks on the bottom, but I don't have the right screws, so I'll need to make another trip to Lowes. I also plan on cutting a second sheet of plywood for a table beneath the work area to store tools or bulky items.

Posted by Terra: Great new workbench. What's its dimensions?
It's 3 x 7, and about 40" off the ground.
Posted by Terra: Nice - it looks huge in the picture - was wondering if you perhaps made it 4' x 8'. Been thinking that should have been the size I made for mine. That way you can pop a 4' x 8' panel on it but then it could be too big.
I thought about going 4x8, but it would have been too large for the garage. Cutting it down to 3x7 gives me a large work area, but I still feel like I can push it "out of the way" when I need to.
Posted by Mordessa: Oh wow, that's a cool bench! I was actually thinking of building myself something like that too. I was disappointed to discover that the table I bought from the second hand store for like $3 was too low for me to use as a proper work bench. It seemed sturdy, and it looked like the legs could be extended when I was looking at it at the store, but I got it home and it's too short, makes me bend over too much while working, which isn't fun.

So, as soon as I can get the money together to build this kind of bench, I think I'm going to do it. I found a great tutorial on how to do it, online.

Great build TK!

Entry 30: May 4, 2012
It's been really busy at work and lots of rain, so I haven't been able to do much this week, but tomorrow (Saturday) I hope to be out in the garage getting things done.

Entry 31: May 9, 2012
I've built as much of the new floor as I can, so the next step is to take off the garage roof so I can frame and put on the new facade and second story. Work is keeping me busy, and this weekend is Mother's Day, but it's also looking like it will be really nice weather, so I'm on the fence as to whether or not I should just go for it!

The new stairs are done and extremely sturdy. This will make storage in the attic space much easier.

A shot of the new joists (2x10s) running above the garage. This will all be covered with subfloor for the new second story.

Another shot of the new joists running above the garage. You can see some of the electrical I still need to tuck away.

A shot at the top of the stairs so you can all see the joists before the subfloor goes down.

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